Seal engine, new clutch

  • The clutch on my 993 Turbo cost about 4K euros years ago (OK, flywheel, guide, etc.) With luck, the disk is enough to change.

    Sealing is not that expensive, foot seals, chain cases and maybe valve guides outlet.
    Can't you find anyone who can do a good job for 3k? The engine is not rocket science.
    Engine out and in takes 3 - 4 hours, so not expensive. Don't let anyone talk you into any more work


    Mfg

    Andreas

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  • Thank you, that's encouraging, I'll ask my mechanic.

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  • A workshop that has the engine in and out in 3-4 hours, not bad.

    Then with a clutch only the disk after 180,000 km sounds like a botched job.

    Replacing valve guides, certainly not done in 1 hour either.

    Foot seals, clearly also extremely quick.


    At Eastern European hourly rates, without your favorite tax.

    Apart from that, a workshop already calculates a considerable amount of time here.


    Nfu


    Michael

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  • The valve and chain case seals are usually a bit damp. You can expect 1200-1500. Don't let this drive you crazy😉

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  • One thing should be clear,


    the clutch and the installation, the price is easy to determine. If you "only" want to seal the engine, then this is also manageable. But you won't find a conscientious mechanic who can dismantle a 30-year-old engine and reassemble it with new seals. Because this is the crux of the matter, if you check all the mechanical parts for their tolerances, then it will quickly become expensive afterwards, because a lot comes together. And sealing also involves splitting the housing, which takes time. There are really only 2 options here, either correctly or not at all.

    But that's just my opinion!

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  • But that's a lot of money, I honestly wouldn't have expected that now...

    The job will definitely run into 5 figures.

    or grind the cylinders again, etc.?

    There is no such thing as cylinder grinding on 911 engines with Nikasil cylinders.

    Grinding is gray cast iron blocks on water-cooled engines such as the 924.

    Leave it as it is and just do the clutch. This can also be done by gearbox and costs approx. 2 K.

    I wonder how you come up with this figure.


    Professional work is, for example, a COMPLETE clutch pack - i.e. have the clutch set including thrust bearing and flywheel ground or rebuilt.

    The clutch kit is available in the bay (whether the thrust bearing is included is not certain) from 450€ The DMF ditto from approx. 400€.

    Ok -- even if you get the whole package for less than 1000€:


    1. there is NO obligation as a workshop to install parts delivered. Although this is often accepted, it is by no means a matter of course.


    2. if a workshop orders the clutch parts itself, then it can quickly become more like 2000€ what they charge you -- because of new release fork, new release shaft, needle bearing, hose from slave cylinder, pilot bearing.................................


    3. this 2000€ plus labor.

    There are two versions here:

    Engine incl. gearbox out -- or just gearbox out.

    I only remove the gearbox. Is faster -- extremely fiddly -- but still faster (I'll get to the engine removal below)

    Not done for a long time -- but even with hourly rates of €100 including tax (which is now rare), you're looking at €800 and up. With billing rates of €120 plus VAT, you're well into 4 figures for the work.


    So you have 3k (and more) for a clutch in no time at all.


    If the engine is removed - then also change the engine oil plus two oil filters --- you save this if the engine stays in - ditto servo oil.


    Clutch including flywheel also because 911 clutches have a tendency to slip -- I would never get involved in "half measures" at work.


    The clutch issue is at least reasonably manageable, after 180,000 km you can probably change it

    When it comes to:

    "You can do it once in a while...!" -- without necessity -- then hands off!!!!

    otherwise just change the automatic clutch

    Hä???? k:thinking: k:thinking: k:thinking:

    Clutch, prices for the parts are easy to find,

    As described above -- no workshop has to accept it.

    Many play along -- but not all.

    Engine usually comes out,

    Can also be done without.

    With luck, it's enough to change the windshield.

    There is no workshop that will get involved in this kind of tinkering. Not with the utopian work.


    Only the owner can do it himself.

    Sealing is not that expensive, foot seals, chain cases and perhaps valve guides outlet.
    Can't you find anyone who can do a good job for 3k?

    :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf: :rf:. That's like 70 cents for a liter of gas.....

    Engine out and in is 3 - 4 hours, so not expensive.

    Sorry -- what?


    I've been wrenching on cars full-time for a good few years now.

    3-4 hours is fine for the 3.2 G, if a mechanic has already done it xx times.


    With the 993, you won't even have the engine lying next to the car in 3-4 hours......

    The valve and chain case seals are usually a bit damp with oil. You can expect 1200-1500.

    With the amount mentioned, only this will be replaced:

    Chain case cover gasket -- incl. the 18 pressure rings.

    But definitely not this seal here:

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    To replace the aluminum seals between the chain case and engine block -- the engine must be removed for this.

    This is the only way to set the timing:

    Set pin for the camshafts at the front of the gearbox - then on the right behind the servo timing belt.

    And to get the servo pump including the timing belt housing down -- the engine must be removed -- zero space to the rear axle.


    TO remove THE engine:


    There are two versions:

    A. Remove the rear bumper.

    So the exhaust can stay on (if you only want to do the clutch).


    B. Exhaust must be removed over a large area (bumper stays on)

    Remove silencers -- (but it may be that they have to come off even with the bumper removed), remove catalytic converter and apply gentle force to the thermal sheet metal of the catalytic converter.................

    Heat exchanger can stay on -- no risk with the stud bolts.

    This now ONLY applies to "new clutch" and to those who remove the engine with gearbox -- as I do NOT do.


    If you want to "seal" -- i.e. completely remove the chain cases and then leave the timing chain dangling loose, you'd better choose version B.


    When resealing the chain cases, the right-hand heat exchanger must also be removed -- because of the chain tensioner. -- There is no room to remove it otherwise.

    The left-hand heat exchanger can stay on.


    And something about removing the 993 engine:

    To get it out:

    1. remove the rear axle center section.

    2. the rear axle tie rods have to come off.

    3. wheel alignment afterwards

    4. there is also a cross strut at the front of the gearbox that must be removed

    5. the heating pipes (metal) must be removed

    6. all this is much more time-consuming and extremely difficult to access around this area at the height of the axle shafts/gearbox bell housing due to the multi-link axle. e.g. loosen the Allen screws of the axle shafts. And removing the axle shafts so that you have more space is almost impossible. You are always "screwing around it".

    7. if the car has to be made rollable again (unless it can stay on the stage for weeks during an engine action), point number 1. must be reinstalled -- without the strut/track rods, you can't even push the trestle with 5 people.....

    8. and after weeks of downtime, this strut has to be removed again............................ And back in again, after engine installation............................



    "Sealing" plus clutch:


    Only now as an example:

    Engine out/clean,

    Intake system, servo pump off/on, blower with air conditioner, fan frame off/on.

    Head units and cylinders/chain cases down.

    So basically only the base seals and then the chain cases have to be resealed.


    Heads remain TOGETHER UNCONTAINED!!!! So they remain bolted to the camshaft housing and camshafts including rocker arms all remain in place.

    So no valve guides or shaft seals are looked at/renewed!!!

    Hull block remains together and connecting rod bearing condition unknown.

    Gearbox clutch off/on.


    This job -- is definitely 45 hours or more.

    Plus wheel alignment.

    Faster is impossible. Completely impossible.

    I've already done it a dozen times.


    And with "wheel alignment" -- if it turns out that the car is also standing on the front axle next to it -- then that is NOT a job for less than 150€................................


    And without the special tools (setting mandrels) -- without them, readjusting the timing is simply impossible.

    Whoever does it without -- with a lot of unprofessional trickery, it can somehow still be done on the M64.05.


    On the M64.21 it is definitely no longer possible without it.


    All about the disassembly of:

    Tailpipes,

    tailpipes,

    Cat,

    Tensioning straps Cat,

    daaaaaaaaa there are endless bolts/nuts that now need to be unscrewed for the first time -- flex flex, grind grind -- and NOT just dismantled with two combination wrenches within 60 seconds...................................................................

    All reasons that eat up your time.....


    Lars

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    Nur wenn du schwarze Striche vom Kurvenausgang bis zum nächsten Bremspunkt ziehen kannst, hast du wirklich genug Leistung(Mark Donohue).


    Im Alter wird man immer knackiger -- da knackt es und da knackt es...


    Sechs 964er bisher mit abgerissenen Dilas --- 14(!!!) Ventilfederbrüche bei den letzten 5 Motoren! 4:3:3:1:3


    Porsche 911 -- der Volkssportwagen...


    "Hoffnung -- ist immer ein Mangel an Information!"


    Wer restauriert -- verliert...

  • After reading this at the latest, I would think very carefully about it :eek:

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  • The 964 is a whole lot more complex than the 3.2.


    The 993 is a significant improvement on the 964. The multi-link suspension is a real pain in the neck in terms of accessibility.

    AND -- almost nothing works here with an impact wrench -- you screw almost everything by hand with individual wrenches............................................................ .



    On well-maintained 964s, for example, you often have no problems with exhaust bolts -- as some things have to be removed every time you adjust the valves.


    They are "common" -- which cannot be said of the 993....


    180tkm?


    If you miss the valve guides -- you redo them afterwards -- at least the exhaust.


    "and while we're at it....!" -- the question of the distributor timing belt is then often asked.


    And that's where the "ignition connection parts" factor -- consisting of:


    Distributor overhaul

    ignition cable set

    2x distributor cap

    2x distributor rotor

    12x spark plugs


    Adding these together can easily add up to 1500-2000€.

    As written -- DO NOT always assume Devilbay prices!!!!


    1000€ for a distributor overhaul I saw a few weeks ago on a Rg of a competitor of mine (30km away)......................


    But I realize that this is coming now.


    "I can get everything cheaper...!"




    Lars

    This post has been automatically translated.

    Nur wenn du schwarze Striche vom Kurvenausgang bis zum nächsten Bremspunkt ziehen kannst, hast du wirklich genug Leistung(Mark Donohue).


    Im Alter wird man immer knackiger -- da knackt es und da knackt es...


    Sechs 964er bisher mit abgerissenen Dilas --- 14(!!!) Ventilfederbrüche bei den letzten 5 Motoren! 4:3:3:1:3


    Porsche 911 -- der Volkssportwagen...


    "Hoffnung -- ist immer ein Mangel an Information!"


    Wer restauriert -- verliert...

  • Anyone who has had it done there and how much the invoice amount was in the end can get in touch....

    This post has been automatically translated.

    Nur wenn du schwarze Striche vom Kurvenausgang bis zum nächsten Bremspunkt ziehen kannst, hast du wirklich genug Leistung(Mark Donohue).


    Im Alter wird man immer knackiger -- da knackt es und da knackt es...


    Sechs 964er bisher mit abgerissenen Dilas --- 14(!!!) Ventilfederbrüche bei den letzten 5 Motoren! 4:3:3:1:3


    Porsche 911 -- der Volkssportwagen...


    "Hoffnung -- ist immer ein Mangel an Information!"


    Wer restauriert -- verliert...